Comments on Evangeliku: Poll - March 2009

Dear Jennie, This is always the case when protest...

2009-05-14T08:13:00.000+02:00

Dear Jennie,

This is always the case when protestants try to say that the Catholic church is ruled by one man and hierachical in structure, that according to them is not biblical.

May I say that God established as such because you could see in His Nature...God is one man rule and His Kingdom (Heaven) is VERY HIERACHICAL wherein the Archangels and angels follow their rank, position and dominions.

As well as the Catholic Church, wherein it is written and described in the Bible (Apostle Paul) as with Bishops as head, presbyters (priests) and deacons.

Now, I ask you dear protestant pastor/christian do you have a bishop above you, as the bible described it as hierachical?

Dear Jennie, I'll try to explain your quotation a...

2009-05-11T07:43:00.000+02:00

Dear Jennie,

I'll try to explain your quotation about faith and the relationship of works(love0.

Jennie said:

"If a person has true saving faith, however, good works should follow.."

Comment: There is no Scripture verse which says that faith results in works. This is the major fallacy of Protestant thought. Rather, works must be consciously and consistently added to faith by an act of the will. This principle is precisely why Abraham fell into some disbelief and bad works in Genesis 16 when he took Hagar as a wife, and in Genesis 17 when he laughed at the promise of God.

The idea that once the button of faith is pushed the conveyor belt of works will automatically start running. Faith does not inevitably produce good works. Faith only gives one a better disposition to do works. The whole book of James addresses the issue of Christians who have faith but are not producing the works they should. Read especially James 3-4, not to mention their despising of the poor man in both 2:1-5 and 2:15-16 after it is said that they have faith in James 2:1.

"Saving" faith or "non-saving" faith is a Protestant invention, since Protestants are desperate to distinguish between two types of faith, "saving" and "non-saving." James isn't addressing the "type" of faith. He is addressing whether the person who says he has faith will now add works to that faith. If he does not add works, it does not mean that he has no faith. It only means that he refuses to add works, and thus he cannot be saved.

You quoted Romans 4:4-10ff

Another problem is that they fail to understand the KIND of works that cannot be used for justification. Paul is clear in Romans 4:4 that "works of debt," which are works done prior to faith, are non-salvific, works not done in faith and grace are works of debt, since he already told us that works done in faith and repentance to God are salvific in Romans 2:6-7, 13.

God Bless

Who is to say which is important and not? Minor d...

2009-04-22T09:27:00.000+02:00

Who is to say which is important and not?

Minor differences in protestants?

Take for example baptism... the Church has decided that the references to Baptism in Scripture must be interpreted as teaching baptismal regeneration, no exceptions. In fact, the Council of Trent bases this teaching on John 3:5 where Jesus said: "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."

Now, granted, you may have a different interpretation of that verse. In fact, yours may even sound better than ours. It's easy to believe that the water is merely symbolic. The Bible uses symbols all the time.

But the $64,000 question is: is the Bible using symbols in John 3:5? How would we know for sure?

We seem to have at least two possibilities. In fact, there are other possibilities. Some Protestants believe the water refers to the word of God, and base that interpretation on Ephesians 5:26. Others believe the water refers to the amniotic fluid in the mother's womb. Others believe the water is more than just a symbol but still doesn't save anyone.

So, in effect, we have five different interpretations of John 3:5, and they all sound very good, but there can only be one correct interpretation and the others are devilish imposters. The context of John 2-4 doesn't help too much in settling on one meaning. So what do we do? Well, the good Catholic will ask: what did John mean when he wrote the words of John 3:5?

Well, we need to ask John what he meant. But, of course, John is dead. Fortunately, however, we know what John meant because he told his fellow apostles, and they told the disciples, and they told the churches. When we examine the record of the churches (and we know them be reading the documents of those times) it is a fact that every church, every Father, every council, and every other body with any semblance of ecclesiastical authority said that the interpretation which holds that the water is the miraculous means of grace and actually procures justification is the only correct answer, and all the others are pious frauds.

If you look at the "reasons" of why were comtempor...

2009-03-28T04:59:00.000+01:00

If you look at the "reasons" of why were comtemporary, respected brilliant and scholarly Evangelical giants of their own protestant faiths with the likes of Peter Kreeft,Richard John Neuhaus and G.K. Chesterton moved to catholism is nothing but brilliant and grace.

Also google "converts to catholism" and look at the lists of intellectual giants of every generation swimming across the Tiber.

Hello guys,I guess this is my last comment.We just...

2009-03-28T01:02:00.000+01:00

Hello guys,

I guess this is my last comment.
We just walk and cling with Lord as faithful as we can!

God bless!

James,I see what you are saying about catholic dis...

2009-03-25T18:03:00.000+01:00

James,
I see what you are saying about catholic disunity as opposed to protestant, but I don't agree with your conclusion that it is fundamentally different. Protestants obviously are not under one(man-made, as I believe) hierarchy like catholics are, and some that you would call protestants are not even believers, so you can't lump them all together. Protestants that are true believers are unified in all that matters. We can come together and worship in Christ's love, even though we have minor differences in practice or doctrinal interpretation. These differences are not important, for the most part. Like I said before, we (individuals and denominations) are all at different points in our growth and understanding. We are unified in love and in important doctrine. Of course, in this time of 'falling away' which I believe is the end times, there are churches and individuals that have left the faith. Jesus and the Apostles warned of this. There are many branches in the Vine, but we are all one in Him if we remain in Him.
It is not a good thing to be unified under a hierarchy if that hierarchy is teaching false doctring (traditions) that are opposed to scripture. You and I disagree that catholicism teaches false doctrine. Unity is only good if we are unified under Christ as revealed in His word.

Hi James,There are so many passages referring to d...

2009-03-25T05:02:00.000+01:00

Hi James,
There are so many passages referring to different aspects of Jesus' return; It's one of the most written-about events in the Bible. There is so much more to it than the thief in the night references; in 1 Thess. 5 it says:
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
So the Lord's return should not be like a thief to the believer who is watching; there are many prophecy books that refer to Christ's return: Revelation, Daniel, Zechariah, Zephaniah, Micah, Ezekiel, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, Malachi, Matthew, Luke, and others. We need to be familiar with prophecy so we can recognize events as they happen and be ready. I don't believe the bible necessarily teaches a pre-tribulation rapture where believers will be taken out before tribulation begins at the end of the age (which is upon us) if you are paying attention. I've noticed that the catholics I know (or read their articles or blogs) don't seem to understand prophecy and aren't taught the importance of it; they aren't watching as Jesus said.

Well, I need to go, but I'll comment some more if I can.
Jennie

James,I don't think I said or implied that good wo...

2009-03-24T20:41:00.000+01:00

James,
I don't think I said or implied that good works ALWAYS follow saving faith. If a person has true saving faith, however, good works should follow and the person should have the ability and desire to do good works because of the presence of the Holy Spirit and the love for God because of what God has done for him/her. What I did say or imply is that good works mean nothing before salvation, and after salvation I should add that only works done 'in the Spirit' rather than in the flesh are counted before God. We need to learn to do everything in His power and love and not in our own, which is hard to learn.

No, I don't think I missed your point, James, about apostasy. The bible doesn't teach that believers can be lost if they sin and die before repenting. We all sin every day, and no one would be saved if it depended on our own perfection or whether we happened to repent in time. I don't have time to finish this post, now, but I'll try to come back later and add to it.
God bless you,
Jennie

James, I would merely say that the the imitation o...

2009-03-24T05:01:00.000+01:00

James, I would merely say that the the imitation of the Catholic Mass is largely due the preconception of non-Christians as to what a church service should look like, based upon a variety of presuppositions and whatnot.

Dear jennie,If you care to look at this link about...

2009-03-23T07:15:00.000+01:00

Dear jennie,

If you care to look at this link about the faith and its nature:

http://newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm

God Bless,

Dear Jennie,God Bless!Just a comment of what you s...

2009-03-23T01:00:00.000+01:00

Dear Jennie,

God Bless!

Just a comment of what you said about faith and good works(love) to you, “ faith always produces good works”.

First,

The Bible and the Catholic teaching is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person, an undeserved gift. (Eph 2:8-9,Heb 11:6)The Bible is equally clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.(James 2:14-18,1 Cor 15:58 Heb 6:10, Col 3:23-24).

Second,

The Bible teaches that faith produces good work and also teaches that love (good works) completes faith without which, faith is dead and useless, but implying as “always or quarantees “ that good works will surely follow faith is not true, nowhere in Bible you could an idea. Yes, God gave us the undeserved gift of justification without us having to work in order to merit it (coz’ there is no way we could earn it) in other words it is an unmerited gift. But remember for our part, God gave us free will and it is still our free will to decide to cooperate and respond (an act: love) with faith…as the saying goes, true relationship and true love works FREELY both ways (reciprocating) or else it’s not true love.

You said ONLY Apostasy can cause Christian to lose salvation, I agree with you that apostasy can cause to lose one’s salvation but not “ONLY”. You missed my point, of course God will forgive us of any sin (including apostasy) provided IF we repented (e.g. former atheists) of it and turn to God’s grace. My point is, a Christian could lose his salvation by willfully, deliberately disobey God by the sins as outlined by St. Paul IF you didn’t repent on them before you die.

I’m sorry I don’t adhere to “millennial reign” and “rapture” doctrines. To my readings of the Bible, Jesus said he will come like a thief in the night, nobody knows when, that’s it, let us leave it as such.

I read Joe’s article about Christian unity compared with Catholic unity. I beg to disagree with him to what he called “disunity” within the Catholic Church were the same as “disunity” within the protestant churches, which he gave an example as: some Catholics allow and some are against artificial contraception or abortion as proof.

What he fails to understand is that the so called “disunity” of the Catholic Church is a matter of disobedience of some catholics AFTER the Proclamation , declaration of a doctrine as revealed truth by our Magisterium (Apostolic Teaching). While in the Protestant side the so called “disunity” is a matter of Doctrinal separation. A very big difference.

About contraception and its history, if you believe that TRUTH is ONE, can not change, true from the old and true today: like God is the Truth....prior to Lambeth Conference in 1930’s ALL Churches were one and agreed that it is unnatural and against the Will of God, but because of cultural pressures almost all Christian churches “cave-in”.

Now some churches even justify by allowing some stages of abortion and embryonic stem cells, cloning, gay marriage and a lot more daunting issues presented by this secular world.

Who stands alone to proclaim that contraception is still against God’s Will? Who speaks for Christ? How are you going to be certain that this church is teaching the truth of Christ regarding issues of Life?

To us Catholics life issues are very important because the only Author is God and we make it a part of our doctrine.

You can see also the official defense of Catholic teaching against contraception, just google “Humanae Vitae” and “Theology of the Body”.

This is in my honest opinion of the importance of that Great Promise by Jesus to Peter and His Church...”the gates of Hell will not prevail against you”.

If the church even how small the “crack” is to us in its teachings (heretical) then the Promise of Christ is forfeited.

Every Blessings,

James

Hi Anonymous,I've read alot on Aimee's site but ne...

2009-03-22T21:51:00.000+01:00

Hi Anonymous,
I've read alot on Aimee's site but never commented, though we did email back and forth a few times. To clarify, Aimee is a former evangelical who converted to catholicism, who very eloquently speaks for her faith, but I couldn't agree with her that Roman Catholicism is the original Church, or that the primacy of the pope is valid, or that the magisterium is good and necessary; and she couldn't agree with me that God's word alone is our rule, and that ended our communication, for now.

Hello Joe, I apologize for misnaming you; I figure...

2009-03-22T21:33:00.000+01:00

Hello Joe,
I apologize for misnaming you; I figured everybody must know something I don't, and followed along:) The discussion has been interesting, though it's been impossible to keep to the subject!

James,
You said:
"For evangelicals, faith is a combination of intellectual assent (and)that produces good works of love.

For catholics, they distinguish separately between faith(intellectual assent) and good works of love (an act/cooperation/free will).

Now in the real world application:

There are people who don't know Jesus(not on their own fault)but still do work of love to their fellow men, ex. remote indian tribes and there are also people who believe Jesus (intellectual assent) but are indifferent and complacent to other people's need.

The question is, which side makes more sense for the "word" faith?"

To answer your last question, James, I would say 'neither one is faith.' The first one is dead works without faith in Christ and the second one is dead faith without works of love.
I don't agree on your defining faith as 'intellectual assent.' Anyone can intellectually 'believe' something, but faith is different; it's a gift from God first of all; it's trust in God that He will do what He says He will do, which trust in turn leads to justification (through Christ's sacrifice) and to obedience to His word. "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Abraham heard God's command and promise, and trusted in it, and then obeyed God and continued to obey throughout his life. He was saved through his faith in God; and he endured to the end.

Mark,
You said:
"Does Paul contradict himself when he wrote:

"...BUT FAITH WORKING TROUGH LOVE" (Gal. 5:4-6)."...for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will pay everyone according to his WORKS." (Romans 2:5-8)

AND

For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. "Eph 2:6-10

To us Catholics we don't see any contradiction because our doctrine of faith is through love, eventhough they are two separate entities they are intimately INTERWOVEN to each other...just like the Father and the Son."

I don't see any contradiction in those two passages, either. Faith is a gift from God, and AFTER SALVATION it then leads to works of love.
Also, I agree emphatically with Kathleen when she said that "the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will pay everyone according to his WORKS" is referring to the judgment of the unsaved, not of the saved. The believers will be judged as well, but not in wrath, and not at the same time as the unbelievers. We believe that 'the judgment seat of Christ' referred to in Romans 14:10 and 2 corinthians 5:10 is for believers; we will be rewarded or punished according to what we have done, but not condemned.

You also asked:
"By the way, do you think it's not only the sin of apostasy that could "kill" the soul and thus, not inherit the kingdom of God as Paul said?"
I believe that apostasy, or defecting from the faith, is the only thing that can cause a christian to lose salvation. I believe rebellion in the form of ANY harbored sin can LEAD to apostasy; but the sin itself can be forgiven if repented of before apostasy occurs.

James, You said:
"Do you honestly think, this is unity Jesus prayed for? with different doctrines not to mention the doctrines for life and for secular world?

By the way speaking of christian and secular world, do you know that before the 30's ALL, I mean ALL Churches agree that artificial contraception is unnatural and contrary to the Will of God?

Look where we are today, after the floodgates were opened, rampant pornography, women as only "pleasure", some churches even advocate abortions and some churches homosexual marriages, what's next?"

James, Joe has several articles on his website about Christian unity and why there are so many 'protestant sects.' I read them a while back but I remember that joe explained it very well and I agreed with his conclusions, if you would care to read them. I think they were under the 'answers' section.

As far as the contraception issue goes, James, I agree with you; and the evangelical churches have failed in this respect and contributed to the downfall of our culture by failing to uphold biblical standards; they have gone along with the world and failed to be salt and light; but this is a very touchy subject, and many dear christians use contraception, or have used it and then stopped after being convicted about it (myself included). But, like I said in an earlier post, no person, congregation, or denomination is perfect yet. We all get 'motes' in our eyes and need help to get them out; and some are in danger of ceasing to be 'the church' at all: we are each responsible to 'search ourselves to be sure we are in the faith' as it is revealed in God's word, not by any traditions of men.

Love, in Christ,
Jennie

Jennie,If you want to discuss futher from the poin...

2009-03-22T20:03:00.000+01:00

Jennie,

If you want to discuss futher from the point of view of a "christian" (non-catholics) google "historical christian" with Aimee Cooper.

God Bless!

Well said, James. Eschatology is a fascinating su...

2009-03-22T19:43:00.000+01:00

Well said, James.

Eschatology is a fascinating subject. The Bema Seat of Christ versus the Great White Throne Judgement is not some strange idea I cooked up, but a well-established Protestant belief. No need to dig deeper than that.

As to my grave error in discounting works of love, I meant no such thing. What I said, and what I mean, is that anything we do from the flesh does not - no matter how noble - constitute an acceptable work, otherwise the Mormons would have us hands down! It is Christ's work in and through us alone that garners righteousness.

I apologize for mis-representing Catholic teachings/doctrine. I didn't think I was. My reading of it leads me to believe Jesus' atonement wasn't enough; that I need to "do" works and/or be consigned to Purgatory, or be rejected altogether in order to keep my salvation. It just seems like that's what is being taught.

My best and warmest,
Kathleen

OOpss, sorry, Sassy granny...To be honest to mysel...

2009-03-22T18:50:00.000+01:00

OOpss, sorry, Sassy granny...

To be honest to myself and thru the Teaching of the Catholic Church, I stand corrected....

I don't agree to most of what you wrote.... about the Rev 20:12. I truly don't know how and where you get those ideas/interpretations from , by the way I looked at it, these ideas are not even shared by most major protestant churches and just trying to dodge the plain and simple texts written "...DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS".

Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" (means people who believes Jesus) will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES the will of my Father in heaven. (Mat 7:20)

Sorry again but I guessed we are the point where we couldn't agree with what the Bible truly taeches.

I suggest the only thing we (myself included) could do is to ask Our Lord with a "humble" heart to show us the FULLNESS of His Truth, that I'm sure He won't disappoint.

Every Blessing and on the next topic!

Just a note...You are misrepresenting true Catholi...

2009-03-22T18:25:00.000+01:00

Just a note...

You are misrepresenting true Catholic Teaching, to quote you, "The Catholic Catechism would have us believe the works themselves make for righteousness".

This is utterly false, nowhere do the Catholic Catechism teach that we "earn" our salvation.

If you really want to know the teaching on the other side with honesty and fairness, please read the official "Catechism of the Catholic Church" or google any "catholic" and find out.

Dear Sassy granny,I agree with most of what you sa...

2009-03-22T18:14:00.000+01:00

Dear Sassy granny,

I agree with most of what you said, so I say Amen!Amen!

However, the one point you made where you implied that works of love is unnecessary or "filthy rags" to me is a grave error and not biblical.

When Apostle Paul wrote both faith and love (good works) emphasizing each one in different verses as if he is contradicting himself but actually not if you read them carefully in context, what Paul's driving at is, the awesome grace of Faith is gift by God to men, an undeserved, unmerited gift to us and Paul also emphasized that we need to respond (love)to that gift (faith) in order for it to be "alive" and "complete" otherwise it's dead faith or like a gift that we threw it away.

Paul didn't teach "faith alone" but rather "faith working through love" (Gal 5:4-6).

This is my point.

Ps thank you Joe eventhough we don't agree on the some interpretations of the Bible, let me call you my brother in Christ.

Every blessing to all!

In Christ,

James

Ooops! That would be me. My apologies, Joe. I t...

2009-03-22T15:33:00.000+01:00

Ooops! That would be me. My apologies, Joe. I think I may have assumed in error. I'm just plain Kathleen too.

God bless you, and thank you for hosting such a worthwhile site & subject matter.

Kathleen

Mmmm ... "deviated from the discussion"? Let's se...

2009-03-22T15:22:00.000+01:00

Mmmm ... "deviated from the discussion"? Let's see, the original topic related to fasting as I recall. But let me just say this, James. I have not been attempting to prove/disprove the once saved, always saved doctrine of many Protestants. My intent has been to demonstrate that works of any sort (fasting specifically), aren't necessary to achieve or even to keep one's salvation. Jesus paid it all. It is finished!

We are not talking apples and apples here. I say Jesus IS the Law, the very sanctuary & offering & festivals depicted throughout the O.T. He was and is THE Life, the Way, the Truth. He resides in me. He keeps me. I have been given to Him by the Father, and He will not lose me. I am dead to self, born new in Him. How could I possibly "work" on my own if I'm dead? And, if I can't work on my own, He must be a most sufficient Savior!

Jennie's post rightly adds the scripture from Romans 4:5 - "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness ...".

The Catholic Catechism would have us believe the works themselves make for righteousness, whereas I'm saying they do not. Christ in me, and Christ working through me constitutes whatever is my righteousness. Anything apart from that is a filthy rag, a counterfeit work.

As far as the "Dead were judged according to their works" (Rev 20:12), you're talking the Great White Throne Judgement, and not the Bema Seat of Christ. I will not be in attendance at the former, as I have been invited to & included in the latter ... I am not judged as are those who do not have Jesus. They WILL BE judged according to the Law. I will not receive a sentence born of wrath, but I will receive whatever crown (or lack thereof) Jesus grants me. My works will then be tested, and the truth about them will revealed (either honored, or burned as the rubble of my life). I am His Bride; they are His enemy.

I am also the church (of one or many), and the gates of hell will not prevail against me/us. My/our Redeemer lives!

So now I return again to an earlier post, wherein I remind myself that any boasting on my part is worthless. I take my case to the very Throne of God to which I now have access, and I rest my case with the all-sufficient Mediator that daily takes it up on my behalf. He, my Savior AND Mediator, is my boast.

To God be the glory!
Kathleen

Hi guys, thank you for your comments. I wish I had...

2009-03-22T14:54:00.000+01:00

Hi guys, thank you for your comments. I wish I had the time to read them all. I noticed that some of you are calling me 'pastor' -- I'm not! I'm an ordinary Christian fellow. God's blessings to all.

Jennie,I didn't say that the different denominatio...

2009-03-22T08:44:00.000+01:00

Jennie,

I didn't say that the different denominations or christian churches who profess the Holy Trinity and deity of Christ were abandon by the Holy Spirit.

In fact if you read the Catechism it says and I quote:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

The point I'm driving at is, if Jesus really loves us, true love demands that He should give us a means to know the FULLNESS of Him.

If Jesus is One with the Father, His church should also be one, as He Himself prayed...."that all maybe ONE".

Do you honestly think, this is unity Jesus prayed for? with different doctrines not to mention the doctrines for life and for secular world?

By the way speaking of christian and secular world, do you know that before the 30's ALL, I mean ALL Churches agree that artificial contraception is unnatural and contrary to the Will of God?

Look where we are today, after the floodgates were opened, rampant pornography, women as only "pleasure", some churches even advocate abortions and some churches homosexual marriages, what's next?

May God help us!

Jennie,I don't want us to throw verses to one anot...

2009-03-22T08:16:00.000+01:00

Jennie,

I don't want us to throw verses to one another, just a question to clear things up:

Does Paul contradict himself when he wrote:

"...BUT FAITH WORKING TROUGH LOVE" (Gal. 5:4-6)."...for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will pay everyone according to his WORKS." (Romans 2:5-8)

AND

For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. "Eph 2:6-10

To us Catholics we don't see any contradiction because our doctrine of faith is through love, eventhough they are two separate entities they are intimately INTERWOVEN to each other...just like the Father and the Son.

By the way, do you think it's not only the sin of apostasy that could "kill" the soul and thus, not inherit the kingdom of God as Paul said?

Every Blessing

Maranatha! My King, Jesus!

Jennie,God Bless!Actually we are very close in our...

2009-03-22T07:20:00.000+01:00

Jennie,

God Bless!

Actually we are very close in our understanding of faith... we also believe that works are not only a manifestation (fruits) of faith, but we also believe that the Word of God is saying that works (love)complete our faith.

The use of the word faith is different from what the catholics and evangelicals understanding, but I think it's close.

First the common agreed point, that faith is a grace from God and unmerited gift to men.

Now for the disagreement:

For evangelicals, faith is a combination of intellectual assent (and)that produces good works of love.

For catholics, they distinguish separately between faith(intellectual assent) and good works of love (an act/cooperation/free will).

Now in the real world application:

There are people who don't know Jesus(not on their own fault)but still do work of love to their fellow men, ex. remote indian tribes and there are also people who believe Jesus (intellectual assent) but are indifferent and complacent to other people's need.

The question is, which side makes more sense for the "word" faith?

In Christ' love,

James

To Sassy granny,Amen sister, amen !Praise be to Je...

2009-03-22T06:58:00.000+01:00

To Sassy granny,

Amen sister, amen !

Praise be to Jesus, my Redeemer, my King and my Saviour! To Him Alone all the Glory!

The amazing grace of faith from our Lord is free and I rejoice from my heart with this awesome gift, an underserved gift for us to be with Him, Amen!

You nailed it, "That's what makes grace so priceless. It's free, yet so very, very costly. He calls. He chooses. He saves. He justifies (as Hebrews demonstrates). He sanctifies. He keeps.

I say, again Amen! Amen!

However,sister, you deviated from our point of discussion which is ,"can a christian lose his salvation?" or How? inspite of ...He gives, He saves, He keeps....

The verses you quoted 1 John 3:6 , I john 23. Rom 3:27-28 ,John 10:28-29 were sufficiently answered.

To be short, God's all powerful and His Mercy and generosity is infinite but one thing He cannot do anything is... our FREE WILL to choose by accepting or rejecting Him by willful and deliverate disobedience to His commandments.

The good thing about Catholic doctrine is that faith is interwoven with love and obedience not just assenting to Christ’s work on the cross.

If you just read about faith in the Catechism of the Catholic Church...just a sample...

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'

Morever, as with Pastor Mizzi's exegesis..."genuine/ saving" faith must be accompanied by works of love in order for faith to be "genuine/saving" otherwise it's dead.

So sassy granny , we catholics didn't negate Books of Hebrews and Galatians when we talk about " faith" in fact we are very consistent with ALL, I mean ALL the verses and Books you mentioned.

How come Paul said these:

“…BUT FAITH WORKING TROUGH LOVE" (Gal. 5:4-6).

"For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified."- Romans 2:13

"…for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will pay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in GOOD WORKS, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

"…one the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden WORKS through Christ Jesus" -Romans 2:16

"So then each of us shall give an account of himself to God."-Romans 14:10-12

Gal 6:4 "For all must test their own work."

“Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, as recorded in the books.”

More in Gal 6:2, James 5:20, James 2:14-16, 1 Cor 9:16, Jer. 17:10; 32:19.

Praise be to Jesus and the Church He established as ONE!