- Yes 57 (76%)
- No 18 (24%)
Comment
To most Roman Catholics, the Saints are the comparatively few departed Catholics who had been canonized by the Vatican. But the Bible says that all true believers are saints. For example, the apostle Paul writes, “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse.” He addresses Christians by the titles “saints,” “faithful” (believers), and “brethren.” Clearly he considered all believers in Christ as saints.
When are they called saints? Rome says, only after their death, when their case is studied and an official proclamation is made by the Pope. The Bible says, all Christians are saints during their lifetime. On innumerable occasions the living Christians are called “saints” in the New Testament, even though they were subject to error and sin.
Why are they saints? Rome says, because they practiced heroic virtue. They attained their own salvation by their prayers and good works. The Bible says, all Christians are “sanctified (made saints) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10). They are saints because of the work of Christ for them, not because of their religious efforts. Christians are called to live holy lives not to become saints but because they are saints already.
How are the saints recognized? Rome says, you need an infallible magisterium to identify true saints, and that only after a complicated and lengthy procedure is followed which includes the proof of miracles. In the Bible the disciples of Christ freely call each other “saints.” They are not recognized by some supernatural power but by their faith in Christ, godliness and love for one another.
Dear reader, I ask you in all seriousness, “Are you a saint?” I hope you can answer with confidence, “Yes, I am a saint, by the grace of Christ.”
21 comments:
Again, some mocking reference between "Rome" and the Bible... you really couldn't write without degrading the other side, don't you, Mr. Mizzi?
Again, the trumping of good works as worthless thing to one's salvation and God...who is boasting anyway?
Again, some misconceptions, the Catholic Church teaches that ALL those who died in the friendship of the Lord are called saints and are with the Lord God in Heaven.(see Catechism).
Now the question, why declare a saint?
The 2 main reason are:
1) to acknowledge the holiness and sanctity of the lives they led, and 2) to set these individuals forth as examples for the faithful here on earth. Just as aspiring athletes look to professional athletes for inspiration and example, so do Catholics look to the saints for the same.
Do Catholics worship saints? By no means, rather we look to them as elder brothers and sisters in the faith. We study their lives and attempt to imitate the same virtue they lived. For ultimately, they imitated Jesus Christ. Therefore, the saints serve as examples for us to imitate.
As St. Paul said:
"For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us... - 2 Thess 3:7
And you became imitators of us and of the Lord... - 1 Thess 1:6
"Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." - 1 Cor 11:1
The saints led lives that magnified Christ, lives that are worthy of imitation.
For your question, "are you saint?"
I couldn't give the same words you said...maybe I'll say, with humility, it is up to God's and the Church which has His Authority to speak for Him to declare such...and not from my own mouth.
The Catholic Church agrees with you and teaches that those who are living in Christ’ grace and love, observing His Commandments are called saints although not on the same level as saints who died and now lives with the glory of God in Heaven.
The former is the same principle applied when Catholics call their Pope, his Holiness,… Is it because the Pope is full of holiness and can not sin? NO! he is a sinner like you and me, it is because of same principle St.Paul is saying, that Christ is the fountain and source of Holiness and Christians living their lives WITH Him and IN Him, imitating the ways of Christ that is working for them are called “saints”.
So with that in mind, I don’t understand why some evangelicals are having some problems and sometimes even mocking the Catholic pope of such, wherein they admit that they could call each other “saints”? double standard?
St, Paul called the true living believers of Christ “saints” but noticed very carefully, the calling of titles like saints, came from other Christians and not from your own lips, why do you think it’s not in Christians’ virtue and humility to call YOURSELF a saint?
Every Blessing to you, brother Joe Mizzi.
I agree with James that you shouldn't call and proclaim yourself as saint.
2 fold reasons:
1. Over-confidence is a vanity, cockiness and pride. These are against the christian virtue of humility, even under the pretext of Christ's grace.
2. The same concept of circular reasoning i.e joining a beauty competition, Miss Texas can not declare herself the most beautiful girl and winner of the pageant, there should be an (outside) entity or person/s of authority other than herself to declare the true winner.
For short, let other christians (as St Paul gave a good example) to call you a saint and not by yourself.
It is apparent the dividing line between Catholic and Protestant beliefs is as formidable as ever. That doesn't mean that either side cannot challenge the doctrinal positions of the other without being labeled mean-spirited. I suppose the truth rests with one's motives. I see no mocking from Pastor Mizzi; just a genuine concern for what is taught as biblical truth when, in his view (and mine) is anything but.
Afterall, it is a biblical mandatate that we reason together, that we contend for the faith as well as sound doctrine, and that we not mistake "zeal" or tradition for truth. (2 Cor 5:12, 1 Pet 3:15, rom 10:2, Gal 1:4).
Here's the rub where saints are concerned. Catholics exalt some over others, and they do pray TO and THROUGH them - - all of which negates the very premise of prayer Jesus offered us by way of the Lord's prayer. It further negates the very command of God to not seek the dead on behalf of the living (for any reason), or to exalt icons/relics - - called household gods in the OT.
If one can say "I am born again", or "I am saved", or "Jesus is my Lord", they are free to say "I am a saint". It is as humble a claim as any, needing no official sanction beyond His blood.
Be blessed,
Kathleen
Please keep up this great work Pastor Mizzi. I have many Roman Catholic friends who need to know the Christ of the Bible!
Joe V.
Dear Sassy Granny,
Every blessing to you. I agree with you that we as followers of Christ should treat each other with respect and love regardless of race and religious affiliations.
But the thing that bothers me is that when some pastors started to hurl some name callings of like, "Roman Church, papist, Mary worshippers" that are far from the truth and very prejudiced.
It is the same as calling a Black congregation as second class citizens or maybe worse before even starting for a conversation, do you know what I mean? Why not explain your side and we as catholics explain our side from the Bible in a brotherly love?
The second thing is, if Pastor Mizzi doesn't agree with Catholic Church's interpretation of the Bible, we could understand, but to make up accusations like, "Mary worshippers and Idol worshippers" in the conclusions of his writings, I think is beyond absurd.
Now, tell me who is mean spirited?
The Bible is very clear that we are all called to be mediators of men (of each other) to God. Does it compromise the one one Mediatorship of Jesus , "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). Just go to the next verse and you will find Apostle Paul saying,"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men…”, so then it is like asking a prayer to your loved ones, which is pleasing to God and does not in any way violate Jesus Mediatorship.
You will ask, “well we don’t pray to the dead, do we?” Well, who says they are dead? If you read the Transfiguration of Jesus on Mt. Tabor where He appeared in glory with dead people, Moses and Elijah…to sum up, for “God is not a god of the dead but of the living”.
We always pray directly to Jesus, who is prohibiting you of doing that? Catholic Church again? Praying for each other is a part of what Christians do, as Apostle Paul is saying in 1 Timothy 2. It is the utmost essential to pray directly to God but God doesn’t prohibit us to pray to one another., He allow it so that we could help one another, that’s the essence of love. There are a lot of benefits if we ask our fellow Christians in Heaven.
The Bible is clear and direct, that Christians in Heaven are aware of our prayers , they intercede for us and that their prayers are more effective because they are united WITH the Lord in glory.
If you ask, where in the Bible that says they pray for us?, Look in Revelation 5:8, dead Christians praying for us…."the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints".
There are a lot more in Bible, if you humbly seek it.
Hi Luther ...
You say "God doesn’t prohibit us to pray to one another." I couldn't disagree more vehemently. Praying TO someone is a far cry from praying WITH
someone.
If Jesus is the ONLY mediator (and He is), that means saints cannot be mediators. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father 24/7 - effectively, completely and always (Heb 7:25).
The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray FOR him in Eph 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying FOR one another (2 Cor 1:11; Eph 1:16; Phil 1:19; 2 Tim 1:3).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth, nor does the Bible give any indication that saints in heaven can hear our prayers. The saints residing there not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?
Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Lev 20:27; Deut 18:10-13).
As for the 24 Elders (big discussion point, depending on one's eschatology) are concerned, in every depiction they are worhsipping, not praying for mortals. One even tells John, "See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed." (Rev 5:5) He doesn't offer to pray FOR John, or offer to lobby on John's behalf. He simply points to Jesus.
Fascinating discussion! Thank you for such thought-provoking comments.
Kathleen
Dear Sassy Granny,
God Bless, thanks so much for the comments and I like our christian exchange of views without one taking the higher ground and calling names.
Because of the space we have, I'll be brief. We Catholics believed the whole Church as Mystical Body of Christ which comprises of Church Militant(christians on earth) and Church Triumphant (those who died with the Lord now in Heaven) and Christ as the Head as what St. Paul described it. Both (Militant and triumphant)are working together and helping one another to go to Heaven. (as we all belong to One Body).
Now, with that in mind:
Objection: "The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth.."
Luther: The bible is clear and not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
Objection:"nor does the Bible give any indication that saints in heaven can hear our prayers."
Luther: As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Objection: " Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination.."
Luther: If I ask Moses or Elijah (both were dead, but appeared with Jesus in the Transfiguration) to pray for me to our Lord God, do you think it's sorcery or whatever?
What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you.The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Objection: "How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?"
Luther: I tell you just in our world, that if I go back 100 years ago, that a man could talk to another man on the other side of the world and simultaneously talk to the third on the moon and so on..they would have thrown you in the mental hospital. Technolgy enables us to do such wonders how much more if you are with God in ALL Glory! it is because God allows us to and not on our. As the Bible says, "the prayer of a righteous man avails much". The saints in Heaven are perfect. (Because they are united with God, who is perfect. That's what will happen to all of us when we die in Christ and go to heaven--we will be joined with Him. We will be like Him. We will see Him as He is). So their prayers are perfect too. (and of course they're going to pray in heaven too. Prayer is communication with God--not only will they not stop communicating once they're in heaven, they'll be able to communicate with God forever, unceasingly, and perfectly).
We are not praying to the saints in place of God, but in addition to our prayers, to add their prayers to our prayers but all the prayers are ultimately and only for God. The perfection of a saint's prayers isn't because the saint is 'worthy' in himself/herself, but because the saint is joined to God. Ultimately, the perfection is God's.
I hope that helps. God Bless.
Just a note:
Intercessory prayer, plain and simple, is prayer on behalf of another person. When we do not know how to pray as we ought, "the Spirit himself intercedes for us" (Rom. 8:26). Jesus Christ himself intercedes for us at the right hand of the Father. (cf. Rom. 8:34) And Paul tells Timothy to offer "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings" for all men. (1 Tim 2:1) We ask our living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us. Why not ask those who are now with the Lord in heaven to do so as well?
1. Those who have died in Christ are not separated from him. (cf. Rom. 8:35-39)
2. Thus, they are not separated from the Body of Christ, which is the Church. (cf. Eph. 5:23; Col. 1:18)
3. If we can ask our physically living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us, we can ask our spiritually living (though, in the eyes of the world, physically dead) brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us as well.
4. Those who have died and are with the Lord in spirit are more righteous than us (being perfected in heaven), and "the prayer of a righteous man has great power" (James 5:16).
5. Thus, it is wise for us to ask the saints in heaven to pray on our behalf.
Praying to the saints is about two things, primarily:
1) recognizing that the Body of Christ is not just Christians living on earth, but includes those who are with the Lord (the Catholic Church calls this the "communion of saints"), and
2) asking them to pray for us, for our intentions, to ask favors of the Lord, etc.
Praying with the saints is not the same as worshipping them; all the saints, except Mary were themselves sinners, and all the saints, including Mary, were themselves in need of God’s free gift of salvation. By honoring the saints, we honor the God Who created them; we should ask for their prayers, just as we ask our fellow Christians on earth to pray for us.
Luke 20:37-38 – “But in the account of the [burning] bush even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord “the God of Abraham, and the God Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” He is not the God of the dead, but of the living for to Him all are alive.” Comments: Jesus states that all are alive to God – and those who live in His presence can and must demonstrate love for others. The saints do this by interceding on our behalf in response to our prayers.
Luke 9:30-31 – [During the Transfiguration] “Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about His departure, which He was about to bring to fulfillment in Jerusalem.” Comment: Moses and Elijah, though no longer physically alive on earth, were involved in concerned with the process by which Jesus was to save humanity.
1 Timothy 2:1,3 – “I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone…This is good, and pleases God our Savior…” Comment: If indeed it pleases God when we pray for others, the saints – who are perfect in love-surely must pray for us.
2 Corinthians 1:10-11 – “On Him we have set our hope that He will continue to deliver us, as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.” Comment: If a great saint like Paul could be helped by the prayers of imperfect Christians on earth, surely we can be helped even more by the prayers of those who are in heaven after being made perfect through Christ’s grace.
A Few Final Thoughts
Catholics honor and esteem the saints, but do not worship them. Having paintings and statues in their honor is no more idolatrous than keeping photographs of our loved ones; praying to them and asking their help is no more idolatrous than a widow or widower’s practice of talking aloud to a deceased spouse at his or her gravesite. Referring to the saints, Hebrew 12:1 says that “we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses.” The holy men and women of every age – if we wish – intimately involved in our lives, and their witness or example can be a source of guidance and inspiration as we undergo our own struggles to be faithful to God. This truth is an important part of our Christian belief in the unity of the Body of Christ, a belief dating back to the earliest years of the Church -–and Catholicism, more than any other religion, has preserved it. Let us ‘imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised” (Hebrew 6:12).
Dear Sassy Granny,
By the way I forgot to address your first objection of praying "TO, FOR and WITH".
To me they are almost the same if you speak in context. "TO" pray to a particular saint because I'm just addressing the prayer to (or through)him on my behalf BUT the prayer does NOT terminate with the saint, ultimately it leads to God.
The key here are 2-fold:
1.My intention is asking the saint for help on my behalf a favor from God.
2.Prayer does not necessarily means worship (which is due to God ALONE). In dictionary..prayer means communication between people, asking for a petition ," a communion". That is why Catholics believed in the "Communion of Saints."
Like in a court of law when they issue a warrant" .."the court prays and summons thee" or a poem of a lover, "I pray to thee my love to come to me.." Does it mean they were worshipping the one they addresed it to? or just "asking"?
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head , and the body, which is the Church.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering and praying for us in our race to heaven.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
And lastly,
The Saints are our older brothers and sisters who love us and it is for this reason that when our comes again He will bring all these Saints with Him so that they can receive us into the Kingdom of Heaven: To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints (1 Thessalonians 3:13); And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his Saints (Jude 14).
We who are members of the Church of Christ are aware of their living presence. Just as we pray for each other, we ask those who are before the Throne of God, to pray for us. We pray that our Saviour will keep us as members of His Body, forever numbered among the Saints.
Hello again,
"Brevity" is hardly possible with so meaty a subject, but I'll try.
Let's remember that the Book of Revelation is first & foremost a prophetic piece - and much of what is presented there is symbolic, representative - unless we are told otherwise. In Rev 5 and elsewhere, the 24 elders represent the entire church ... positioned before God's throne (the promise given in 3:10, now fulfilled). The fact that they are wearing "stephanos" crowns tells us the have already stood before Christ's Bema seat - an event that includes the entire church - a church that is no longer on earth. This is just one scene lifted from chapters 4 & 5 that tell of events happening in heaven.
The "Tribulation saints" are NOT the church. From chapter 3 onward in the Book of Rev the church is notably missing (for a reason). We will, most assuredly, disagree on this point. I could go into much more detail, but suffice it to say the Catholic Church's eschatology versus that of the Protestant Church is too wide a breach to span here.
As for the comment posted about all being sinners "except Mary" - I can't even begin to address that here. There is absolutely not one scintilla of evidence to support such a view/doctrine. Let's not go there.
The evidence presented for exalting and praying to/with deceased saints is flimsy, and based almost entirely on prophetic texts, which don't actually support the doctrine. Indeed, all saints are made alive in Christ - but saints in heaven have no greater "pull" than saints on earth. We are equal.
No matter what good & noble purpose one might posit to seek the dead on behalf of the living, it's still sorcery. I realize you don't see it that way, but the scriptures are clear.
So, in order to craft sound doctrine, we need to see evidence & proof texts that demonstrate the apostles/disciples actually praying TO and/or WITH deceased saints, or encouraging people to do so. That, or clear scriptural directives that support it.
I believe we've covered all we can on this topic without advancing a larger forum.
For now, and always, may the Lord be glorified as we seek solely to serve & honor Him!
Kathleen
Dear Kathleen,
Every Blessing to you!
If you want to know the answer for your question on Mary's sinlessness and Immaculate Conception using the Bible, just google this exact words, "Mary the ark of the new covenant".
It will astound you of the dignity and honor that God gave her.
Thank you again for all the points to ponder!
I have mentioned it before, but I do so again just for the record. I was raised a Catholic, attended 12 years of parochial school, and dug deeply into the doctrinal & traditional beliefs of Catholicism before finding them incompatible with the scriptures. I was among the first of my huge Catholic family to part company with Catholicism, followed by a large exodus as, one-by-one, other family members did likewise.
As for Mary ... I respect and value her incredible role, and her willingness to serve God as she did. As to whether she was/is sinless, or is now a co-redemptrix & mediatrix, no google search will align such a teaching with scripture. It just isn't true. That's why it's best we don't dialogue along those lines. I fear it would simply break down into needless wrangling.
I understand where you're coming from. So, until next topic, next time ... my best and warmest to all,
Kathleen
Dear Kathleen,
I was an atheist, a man of science but at somepoint of my life that I won’t elaborate ,I knew there is God and I knew that the claims of Christianity was true. To make the story short, with much arduous prayer and constantly seeking by reading tons of books on Christianity, its history and by the process of gathering data, testing and elimination, I found that there must be one, only one church that Jesus had established on earth that is consistent and cohesive regardless of generational period since its inception.
There are 3-verses that finally tip me over and fell-in love with His church:
1. (Malachi 1:11), “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a PURE offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.”
This biblical prophecy happened 400years before Christ and it tells that in the near future EVERYDAY from the rising of the sun shall be offered to Him a PURE OFFERING.(that means without blemish). I asked myself, which part of our worship fits into this verse? I got some say that it pertains to offering of our body, thanksgiving and praise to God but the thing is…whatever we do as humans even to the best of everything will never be PERFECT. Only Jesus Christ is perfect to be offered to the Father, EVERYDAY.
2.(Matthew 16:18), “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
The grave significance of Jesus naming the only Apostle, permanently from Simon Bar Jonah to Peter (Rock). I looked at other verses wherein Abram was changed to Abraham which denotes from just a father to a father of a great nation, Jacob to Israel…a change of name in the Bible means a new role, responsibility and status.
3. (1 Cor 11:29), “Anyone who eats and drinks is eating and drinking a judgment against himself when he doesn't recognize the Lord's body. This is the reason why many of you are weak and sick and quite a number [of you] have died.”
It doesn’t make sense if we are just talking a “mere symbol” here because the punishment is severe, pain of death. If you say it refers to an offense like, desecrating a U.S. flag or other symbols it still doesn’t merit this kind of punishment, actually most of the time the people who commit this were just being fined or some nothing at all. But this passage from St, Paul is very serious and it makes sense only when you discern that it is the REAL, TRUE body of Christ.
I rejoiced that Jesus Christ had established His Church, to teach, proclaim and PRESERVE His true teachings for every generation and I believed it is the Catholic Church.
May God richly bless you!
Luther, et al - - good morning,
With respect to our host Pastor Mizzi, I am reluctant to take this discussion to far afield of his original post. Besides, we all know the divide that exists between Catholic and Protestant doctrine.
1) The Malachi verses you site speak of incense offerings. Yet when we look back further into the OT, we read of a various assortment of offerings - - all of them archetypical of Christ. Fast forward to Romans 6:9-1 or Hebrews:10 in entirety. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, fulfilling all sacrificial requirements. To believe as you do, I would have to first negate the NT scriptures, and then I would have to believe I kill Him over-and-over-and-over again (daily), in order for His death to have efficacy. It doesn't make biblical sense or common sense. And is essentially makes a liar of God Who tells us otherwise throughout the entire Book of Hebrews.
2) Peter & rocks. We could talk long on this one, but suffice it to say that both Peter/rock, and the rock/truth he had just professed ("You are the Son of the Living God"), was & is the foundation upon which the church (which, by the way, is not the property of any denomination, but the very Bride of Christ.) is built. The teaching of Scripture, taken in context, nowhere declares that Peter was in authority over the other apostles, or over the Church (having primacy). See Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; and 1 Peter 5:1-5. Peter himself made no such claim.
3) Communion. It's a huge subject. It would take us to the wider context what it is (the Bread of Life), going way back to OT manna and other archetypical foundations. It would lead us to compare other metaphorical texts, like Jesus saying "I am the Good Shepherd", or "I am the Vine", neither of which was He in reality, yet truly was He is in every sense of those concepts.
If transubstantiation is true, then Jesus' body must be in hundreds of thousands of tabernacles simultaneously. Yet, the Word of God states unequivocally that Jesus has only one body: "and that He [Jesus] might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross…" Eph 2:16, and "a body you have prepared for Me." Heb 10:5
Moreover, were we to talk of how the host becomes actual/literal flesh, then we'd have to have a discussion about a wider implication. There would be perfect DNA yielded that could cure everything and everyone for all time. Best we agree to disagree on this one.
My own trek from unbelief to faith in Christ came by way of a scripture too. John 8:31-32 "If you hold to MY teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." I decided to believe Him and His word, to hold/cling to Him. That was 35 years ago, and I have yet to regret or disdain the salvation & freedom I've found in His care. He alone is my Rock, my daily portion, my Lord.
To God be the glory, and to you be great joy & peace,
Kathleen
P.S. Pastor Mizzi ... please let me/us know if we have worn out our welcome! Bless you.
Pastor Mizzi and Kathleen,
Thank you so much for your generosity.
For Kathleen, I know where you're coming from and I respected that.
I would have like to address your objections much further and to show you that the Catholic position are very Biblical than what you might think but I guessed we over-extended our "stay" with our host.
We know the positions of both sides about the "general" subjects above but you haven't given a "specific" comments on the "specific" passages I wrote, namely for:
1. What part of your congregation/worship that fits this passage of "PURE offering that is being done EVERYDAY to God?"
2. Why and what is the great significance of changing a name permanently in the context of Jewish history and religion, because I guessed, Jesus didn't just do it for fun.
3. What is your position on this passage and the great warning from St. Paul about eating and drinking a "symbol?"
I truly admit that our understanding and interpretation of the Holy Bible was very different and with quite a gap! ala Grand Canyon!
I hope someday we could follow what Jesus prayed for, that we could be one, one flock, one shepherd.
Maranatha!
Just a additional note...
I read all if not most of Evangelical’s exegesis about the “Living Bread” discourse, I hope you pretty much know about the Catholic’s position on every point you had raised. But I haven’t found an Evangelicals’ (missing even Pastor Mizzi's articles)position on the passage from Malachi 1:11, I just wanted to know, no pressure.
Both Catholics and Protestants agree that God’s name became great with the Gentiles and heathens only after Jesus’ dead, Resurrection and the Great Commission. (Before that heathens don’t know anything about Jesus). Now, in the passage it says from then on incense and Pure offerings shall be offered from the rising of the sun and the going down of the same (which means, everyday!) and in EVERY place.
Now the question is, what part of our/your worship fits or fulfills this passage from the Scripture?
For the lady who said from unbelief to faith in Christ...This was always been the case,people who have converted from Catholism to protestantism always have a disdain or sometimes hatred towards their former faith.
But for us, former protestants and specially for the hundreds of protestant ministers, elders and pastors swimming across the Tiber river (converting) to Catholicism brought by diligent study of the Scriptures and arduous prayer, it's like a liberating and deepening of faith anf love for Christ. We don't hate our former church in fact we love them for giving us the knowledge and love for the Word of God.
Now in the Catholic Church it is much more deeper spiritually than I thought.
Just to be a part of this world-wide, unified Body of faith is an incredible, indescribable gift, a real gift of God that takes my breath away daily.
I am on the path to sainthood which culminates in my coming into heaven after I, by the grace of God, am purged of all taint of sin so that I am prepared to share eternal life with Him; to be "perfect as God is perfect" as we are all called.
You use the Bible, and write things like "it is clear from this scripture" and then you go on with your own interpretations that differ from mine and from probably millions of other peoples as well. You deny the authority of the True Church that was founded by Christ when He established the Church on the Rock of Peter; yet you accept the scriptures that were canonized by that very same hierarchical institution. It is illogical to accept what they canonized (the Bible didn't float down from the sky after all) and deny the institution. I believe it is also a grave sin that you are committing, attempting to lead people from the True Church.
You are in my prayers, as are all false teachers and those they might lead astray.
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